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Great sidestick view of A320 landing - right seat

eklendi
 
I love it when the general public says, "these things land themselves pilots are just system managers" This video shows the amazing abilties and skill of what REAL pilots do every day... (www.youtube.com) Daha Fazlası...

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bentwing60
bentwing60 6
Watching this video calls to mind more than one pilot that I have flown with in my career that is a yoke waggler. This is a bentwing60 invented term, but describes a control operator, pilot, who inputs, cancels, and counteracts the controls so rapidly that the airplane has no time to respond, thus wasted motion. The video does not show the visual cues (out the windscreen, so I won't say that all of that monkey motion was unnecessary, but, it kinda looked like he was stirring something on the stove. Long ago I would tell a student, the hardest thing to do is nothing, but when that is what the airplane calls for, that is the appropriate response. Nothing. Short final is the domain of the waggler, the flare, is the coup d'etat. Gotta stir that butter. If you are a waggler, you probably don't even know it, but, think about it!
preacher1
preacher1 6
I would have to totally agree about the pot stirring and the comment above about having it hooked to a playstation. Agreed that it shows no visual cues but dang, that is a little much.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Totally agree Wayne...but if you look at a company like JetBlue they seem to have these machines behave wonderfully. They can fix 'em better than they can in the EUR too. Now just think if both crew start waggling that stick as happened with that tragic AF over the S Atlantic.
preacher1
preacher1 3
USAFcptnShades
USAFcptnShades 0
Are either of you two qualified on the airbus fleet?
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
I am not. And thank you spatr for an informed (Airbus qualified) post. Your point about roll rate and g-loading could be equally applied to conventional controls. It's just that they don't do it through a series of computers designed to isolate the airplane from the operator. The video brought to mind past episodes of watching operators over control airplanes, the dangers of which are very real and well documented. Think AA flight 587. At that time the rudder software problem was in uncharted waters, never the less, res ipsa loquitur. As for the rest, what Preacher said.
spatr
spatr 3
The fact of the matter is that the basic laws of aerodynamics apply to the A320 just the same as any Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed,etc. The flight control computers may be calibrated differently, but you still have to move the controls to make it go in the direction you want. At Vr you pull back, on landing you still need to flare, you lose an engine you step on a rudder pedal. The main difference from most fly-by-wire aircraft is that there is no tactile feedback like some airplanes that have an artificial feel computer. Yes, we are managers as are most modern airliner pilots. I do nothing different than anybody else with an autopilot, autothrottles, and flight director.

And while the computers do "isolate" us to a point, it will go where I want it to go when I want it to do so, if it doesn't we can take the computers offline...it's not HAL9000. The only difference is like I said before, there is no seat of the pants flying feel to it.
iflyrjs
terry gersdorf 1
simply said you are correct sir
iflyrjs
terry gersdorf 1
I am and that was too much
preacher1
preacher1 1
Question and so many rumors amongst us Boeing folks, and I guess most of this would go all the way back to AF447:
Briefly explain the LAWS in an AB and what they do and how simple or hard it is to change them.
This seems to stem from the fact that that the rumor abounds that an AB will lock out a pilot if the input is outside the flight envelope. I have heard that is correct while in one of those LAWS, but that it takes a programming change to change to another law to allow such movement and that reprogram time is just what you might need to correct an upset.
I'm claiming just enough peripheral knowledge here to be dangerous, so help me out.lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I'm not. That is stated. We also reserve judgement because of no visual cues. It just seems much. May be just what he needs, but it just don't look right. May I ask the same question. Are you typed on the fleet?
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Imagine having a waggle stick on an MD-11...
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 1
Both are ATP's with thooooousands of hours and both have highly regarded opinions and thoughts on here, IMHO of course Sir.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 3
Waggle while hovering a helicopter and you will sink to the ground unless you pull a lot more power.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I thought of you yesterday. I did my first ANGEL FLIGHT yesterday from KFSM to Dover and back. The boy(man) was a USAF Cobra pilot in Afganistan. Went down last Sunday. They don't know yet if mechanical or shot down, but the return was beautiful. We picked up an A10 escort out of the 188TFW there at KFSM coming back in. We came straight in on 25 and 5 of them came over the top in a missing man and broke over the field for the pattern. Gave me the heebie jeebies just being a part of it. Service and all was in a hangar at the 188th.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Very nice. Was the angel flight in company plane or something else?
preacher1
preacher1 1
Company, 767; Me and Dude went up. He hadn't ever made one either. Honor Guard from 188th flew up with us.I interned the boy while he was in college and he went on to USAF, officer and pilot. Very prominent family at FSM. 5 jets offered family to go up. They asked us on account of past association. Like I said, heebie jeebies. Coming back in, we picked up escort about 30 miles out. Center told us to go ahead and go to KFSM tower that far out, and to monitor them. Blew my mind. I have flown in/out of that airport for years, and while never treated bad, have never been treated that good. Good Lord was at work the whole trip, up and back. It couldn't have gone better if it was a movie script.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I hate to hear about our losses and injuries in Afghanistan. Reminds me of the "winning hearts and minds" campaign in Nam. We can't seem to learn. Glad your flight went well. Happy Easter.
preacher1
preacher1 1
10-4, same to ya'll
iflyrjs
terry gersdorf 1
So true
nicholasweber
nicholas weber 1
Waggling the sick as you call it is essential in turbulence. It' stops to a/c from departing your intended flight path.
ddesfosse
ddesfosse 2
Doesn't waggling the sick, especially in turbulence, make them sicker? ;-)
nicholasweber
nicholas weber 1
No! In turbulence for you to "not" waggle the stick is guaranteed to have sick down the back of your neck!!!
zoso
zoso 5
spatr is spot on with his comments.

This isn't black science and with an experienced hand, the Airbus can transition from a crab to a slip in a crosswind as simply as a Cub on grass. The computers and flight control laws add layers that must be understood, but in some circumstances, such as a steady state crosswind, they can work to your advantage.

Specific to this video, the gent is more active than what is usually seen, but we do not know the environment. Before being critical, consider three things;

1)If you filmed your hands during landing, you would probably be surprised at how much they move (film a Stearman pilot's feet, now that is movement!)

2)The Airbus stick physically moves thru a wide range. This is a large transport and responds more lazily due to the mass you are commanding. This isn't an F-16 that relies on stick force.

3)The A320 is the more demanding variant during landing. Fully loaded, the A320 loses handling points because of it's more aft CG condition (you can see this in takeoff MAC settings). This results in a bit of pitch instability in the landing flare. You ask for a small change and you get more (pitch) than you anticipated.

Compared to the A319 or A321 and there is a noticable difference. The A319 can be like landing a potato chip when light, but it's always nicely balanced. The A321, with a high wing loading is a veritable rock on final. With it's soft gear the A321 is the easiest to land, though the mass works against you when trying to stop.

I could go on, but that's enough for this discussion. I've flown the A319/A320/A321 since 1999 and have 10,000 PIC over that time. Boeing & Douglas are all wonderful machines, but I cringe at the thought of flying an airliner with a wheel again.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Great stuff zoso.. I admire the JetBlue crews
zoso
zoso 1
Thx, US Airways are good guys too :-).
spatr
spatr 3
http://youtu.be/0NVeOQwxopM

splitscreen of a different flight.
MattHauke
Matt Hauke 2
Much better video then the one the OP posted. Thanks
preacher1
preacher1 1
Not near as much wiggle waggle as on the original post. I would have like to have seen a horizon, real or artificial. I just don't think I could ever get used to an aiplane calling me a retard though.lol
Derg
Roland Dent 1
The IFE people have missed a big opportunity here. They could have say 25 seats kitted out with a game and waggle stick...$75 premium on the seat price.
mikeb5618
Mike Barbato 2
You can clearly see the PFD on the panel. Looks stable to me. Experienced pilots like that will make quick movements to keep the plane where it needs to be as soon as they notice a small deviation.
wasclywabbit
John Berry 2
It looks to me like he has the stick hooked up to his Playstation.
bill54494
Bill Menzel 3
It would be nice to get the opinion of an actual A320 pilot regarding all the control inputs. I'm loath to judge this FO's style without hearing from someone who's actually sat in his seat.
kg0ye
Griff Griffin 5
The A320 has no input that would automatically take the airplane to a neutral flight control position by turning loose of the stick. Such as, zero deg ailerons & or elevator.
Thus inputting a slight wing down, the A 320 will maintain that input until the pilot gives it another. It will not return to a trimmed position as in a Cessna 172 does with elevator trim. Therefore, the pilot, FO or Capt. must continually stir the pot watching the visual cues artificial horizon or outside horizon for the need to reset the airplane. It's more like correct and recorrect. The last input will not be the last until the airplane is below flying speed. 3,000 hr A320 Captain.
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Thank you for the input, and pardon the pun. Sounds like stirring the pot is built into the control logic and you do what it takes. In retrospect, I'll stick with my statements about over controlling conventionally controlled airplanes, and surrender my pound of flesh.
kg0ye
Griff Griffin 1
The term stirring the pot is rarely used in the cockpit, but is often used by the instructors during initial simulator periods.
bill54494
Bill Menzel 1
Thank you, Captain Griffin. You explained that well.
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Couldn't agree more, thus, my comment that we were not privy to the visual cues he may or may not have been responding to. My guess is that without said cues, an Airbus pilot would be hard pressed to pass judgement on the technique displayed in the video. The thrust of my comment was addressed to wagglers and the over zealous control usage they display. And as Toby sorta said, a pilot induced oscillation is a very real possibility with rapid and uncoordinated control inputs, especially with tip tanked airplanes with fuel in them. Waggle the wings in an old Lear or Jet Commode with the yaw damper off and you can be in for a big surprise. And the yaw damper is kicked off on short final. If not, your in for another big surprise. That's all for me.
spatr
spatr 2
To possibly over simplify. moving the stick left/right, commands roll RATE. Forward/back, commands g-loading. All that moving (stirring the pot) does not correspond to A/C movement. When the pilot moves the stick like in the video probably means a bit of a x-wind. When the plane gets moved around by wind, it takes some more movement to get it back to where you want it since you command rate of movement not actual aileron deflection.

It took some getting used to, but its fine. It's no easier or harder than any of the other types I have flown.
Vanfleet1
J. Vanfleet 2
The videos are awsome but wish pilots were trained to fly, not just operate a machine.
jbird17
jbird17 2
Like a few others have said I fly a 1946 Stinson and if I moved the yoke that much I would be doing the wobble. I know I would not be comfortable flying with this joker.
airjer320
Jerry Hargis 1
Look at the guys sleeve. It's moving pretty good, so I'm guessing it is a bit turbulent. Then go listen to the auto-callous from 50the feet to touchdown. In normal conditions it is a slow steady countdown. He must ha e it aught a sinker about 30 feet but manages to arrest the descent before touchdown.

In calmer conditions, like in golf, you want "quiet hands" and a relatively loose grip. And then just fingertip inputs to keep it on the glidepath and centerline. If you "choke the chicken" you will have to work too hard.

One thing I see when pilots come over from the Boeing is the tendency to pump the stick (in pitch) like they pumped the yoke (in pitch) in the Boeing during the flare. They forget that one of the things the Airbus does starting at 50 feet RA is it starts to slowly trim nose down. This will get the pilot to start to hold just a bit of nose up stick to get a nice flare. But you don't really see a great pitch change. Maybe a degree or so. But those who pump the stick defeat this and generally have sloppy landings.

And on a final note, I think the Airbus (at least the 319/320/321) is the easiest to land in a crosswind. I had flown the 727, 737, and 757 prior to going to the 'bus. I flew it for about 2000 hours as an FO. A Check Airmen showed me how to do it one gusty night in Las Vegas. I then used the same technique when I went to the left seat of the 737. But I have now been back in the left seat of the 320 series for 10+ years and can say in a crosswind it lands and handles the best.
25000TT/11000Airbus
NickLalani
Nick Lalani 1
Great stuff. Some skill
USAFcptnShades
USAFcptnShades 1
I forgot everyone on this forum is a line check airman on the airbus... I hate all of your opinions on this video ;)
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I was flying the Airbus fleet since Microsoft first brought it out, so I'm expert enough!!!
eagle763
John Hale 1
I'll agree with bentwing on this one. Unless it was a super cross wind day that was not necessary to move the yoke. I've been in a c172 on windy days and not move it that much.
DSteiner
DSteiner 1
All these comments from folks who have no experience flying the aircraft reminds me of the time I had a discussion with an Amish man who insisted he knew all about flying and insinuated I knew very little. After finding out he had never ridden, or seen the inside of an airplane let alone flown one I walked away shaking my head and chuckling. He had seen pictures and done some reading to his credit.
admcp2001
Pam Niehoff 0
I just wish he had covered the boils/crud on his arm. Gross.
spatr
spatr 0
Is there anyone here that actually flies an A320 that could testify on what it's like to land an A320, or is this yet another Airbus sucks and Boeings were crafted by the hands of God Almighty thread?
jkudlick
Jeremy Kudlick 0
Thanks for sharing this. Although I'm not a pilot myself, spending some time in the back seat of a T-34C (and about 5 minutes in the left seat of a Goodyear blimp) taught me enough to know it's not just pushing a few buttons and relaxing.
shade3126
Chris Lane 0
Wow who knew you could caputre video like that with all electronics turned off! Must be an old 8mm camera someone found some film for.
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 0
I wish they would've had a separate video window showing an airfield-side view of the landing. Kind of meaningless looking at someone's arm the whole time.
Flyingappraiser
That much stick, with no rudder!
preacher1
preacher1 3
As what bentwing says below, a side screen view would have been interesting.lol
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp -2
HIO pilot- Human Induced Oscillations

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