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ATC Argument though Bravo Airspace at KLAS

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NASTY ARGUMENT between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC! | Busted Bravo Airspace (www.youtube.com) Daha Fazlası...

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DrayHines
Dray Hines 16
Just like everything else, just because somebody got a passing grade, doesn't mean that they are good a what they do. If the recordings are accurate, NR did not ask for clearance. On top of that, he became rude. Could have said I'm sorry, I made a mistake. But we all know that "everybody else is wrong. NOT ME" Right!!! Self centered punk is what we have here.
jimcarroll
I probably wouldn’t lastlong as an ATC, but I would have asked this guy if he also walks across the 405 during rush hour. Someone should teach him that there are other people using his sky.
tyketto
We've heard JFK Arnie and Kennedy Ralph say and do worse and still control. you'd still be on the scopes. ;)
Smitjere
Smitjere 13
I fly a little 182 through there weekly. Vegas and Nellis approach are probably one of the easiest Bravo to work with. I look forward to talking to that controller again next week. I'm guessing wife no longer approves and there will be a 210 for sale in the Torrance CA area.
tjd1969
Tim Duggan 1
A Cessna 210 for sale in Torrance??? What year, what price?? Count me IN!!!
rvasic
ratko vasic 1
It's 1980 pressurized 210 :-)
But I wouldn't hurry in buying. If he maintained that aircraft as he is flying it... probably bad deal.
jmanley20
John Manley 11
The very fact alone this guy entered Bravo airspace without a clearance is grounds for a pilot deviation.... the fact he REFUSED to leave Bravo airspace and had an attitude about it on frequency,likely will be grounds for license suspension or revocation from FSDO........ dudes a total winner........
JakeSully
Mistakes happen. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace.

Blatantly ignoring ATC is criminally gross negligence.

When other pilots are straight up calling you an asshole on frequency, and nobody but you is concerned by it, YOU fucked up.
KicksOnRoute66
Owned by "Wife Approved LLC" lol
MikeinKyiv
Mike Lynn 7
What an absolute jackass. He needs his pilot's license revoked and needs to write a letter of apology to the controller. And yes, keep a close eye out for his Cessna being up for sale. Can you imagine the conversation if it had been Kennedy Steve in the Control Tower?
tyketto
Steve would have still kept it a bit humorous for us listening to this while still giving somewhat of a beatdown to the pilot...

Now, if it were Kennedy Ralph or JFK Arnie, they would have ripped him a new a-hole so big that both those SWA arrivals could shoot the fill ILS 26L approach through it, with the Missed Approach Procedure, including the holds at BLD...

TWICE.
roycejones
Royce Jones 6
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a more entitled jerk pilot on the radio!
airbusflyboy
There's always a two per center out there to mess things up for all of us .......
Mmeyers7167
One can only imagine what the other aspects and relationships of this guy’s life look like. How much do do you want to bet that when his license is suspended he will continue to fly? On the other hand if anyone is in the market for a nice looking Cessna P210, I got a feeling one will be coming on the market real soon
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Never thought about it but if he files a flight plan, with a suspended license would ATC know and therefore to refuse to release him.
clarify
clarify 6
I'm unhappy that Henderson Tower apologized to the pilot for "the service". It's clear the pilot already feels entitled and that apology doesn't help.
ib4zlinux
Robert Green 10
Doubt Henderson got the full story.
mgmccarroll
Had he flown KAPA BLD KHND, he would have added one mile to his trip and stayed out of Bravo with no change in his descent profile. However, as Smitjere already mentioned, a Bravo clearance is easy to obtain in that airspace when requested. Having done neither, the pilot could have easily exited Bravo when asked. I wonder whether there was a pressurization failure which rendered him hypoxic and lacking in judgement. How’s that for grasping at “benefit of the doubt” straws?
8literbeater
If you look up Jeffrey Wachner, you'll find evidence about his personality that confirms this event. He's an instrument commercial multi rated buffoon.
miles2336
Miles Dee 2
Thanks.....I did and what a complete and total douche'. Only item I take with your comment is; you're being a bit harsh on buffoons wouldn't you say? ;-)
patpylot
airman's certificate ought to be suspended straight away. There may be a dollar amount fine attatched to this too. At the least, any taxi clearance or takeoff clearance should be denied.
tbpera
Tom Pera 2
had many fun experiences when a tower controller at So Lake Tahoe... but when we reported "incidents" to
our FAA brothers they routinely poo-pooed them and never followed up.. nothing will happen to this guy
dmanuel
dmanuel 2
Is there a record of what subsequent actions occurred?
marcfeldstein1990
Henderson twr APOLOGIZED
Quirkyfrog
I worked retail, and there are two types of apologizing. I'm thinking they used the first, not the second.
dee9bee
dee9bee 2
I haven't flown in over ten years but on this entertaining audio, I failed to hear two sentences that I thought were standard verbiage from ATC. "Remain clear of class B airspace, squawk 1234", followed by "Cleared into class B, cleared Henderson via...".Yea,the Pilot was a jerk.
tyketto
In all honesty, the first line is not needed. Pilots are to remain clear of Class B airspace until ATC explicitly clears them into Class B. That is where the pilot was wrong, and then not only still busted Class B, but flew through the 26L/26R localizers while an aircraft was on final. He's lucky he didn't get even more of a verbal beatdown than he did on frequency.

That said, since he wasn't assigned a discrete code by L30, it could be assumed that he was VFR, had flight following from ZLA, and handed off to L30 from ZLA, so a new code wasn't needed. But even with that, explicit Class B clearance is required for him to transition through the airspace.

In short, the pilot is screwed.
anthony96
totally agree
jmanley20
John Manley 0
you clearly dont know how Bravo airspace works..... according to 14 CFR $91.131 you are absolutely wrong.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.131

please read and understand you MAY NOT enter Bravo airspace on a VFR flight unless given EXPLICIT clearance from the appropriate ATC facility.
tyketto
And you apparently didn't read my post. no where in there did I say that you could enter Class B on a VFR flight. I'm explaining the conditions onto how he was handed over to L30, and what the status of his flight was. That has nothing to do with still needing the explicit clearance into Class B.

And I'm more than familiar with 91.131, let alone the 7110.65Y. Instead of saying how wrong I am, how about re-reading my post to see how you actually just repeated with everything I said.
jmanley20
John Manley 2
sorry i meant dee9bee not you... should have clarified. lol
tyketto
Ahh. no problem. :)
jmanley20
John Manley 1
I can tell you have ATC background... .65 lol nice.
patpylot
it ain't a democracy up there in the skies: pilots submit to controllers with or without radar to keep seperation and sanity while flying. No entitled butt-heads get their way in that scenario. Play by the rules or get on your bike and pedal. period. Does this guy not believe in 4 way stop sign rules or red lights or traffic lanes, or even stay on the right side of the road? If he goes to england, does he demand everyone else drive as if they were in america?
rvasic
ratko vasic 1
Just unbelievable, guy mixed up rules for entering Bravo and Delta airspace.
tjd1969
Tim Duggan 1
When it comes down? (Pun intended)...it is always "Here's a phone number to call". LOL!!! I have NOT been there, NOR done that! But I know/have heard of others.
redcataviation
He will probably claim that he was not at the controls. Ever notice that names are kept off of flight plans? Fortunate that the area was not busier. Maybe he could update his knowledge
with an instructor. This guys sounds like he is dealing with the old TRSA where all you do is make voice contact. Or next time just whiz through and leave the radio off.
tyketto
Even if that were the case, TRSA is similar to Class C, where two-way communications would be all that was required. They have that still in effect at KPSP, but that is irrelevant for Class B, as that explicit clearance into/out of it has been around since I started in in ATC, and that was 23 years ago.
redcataviation
He is definitely dealing with an C-5 attitude jammed into a light sport brain. I was not trying to excuse his complacency. After going through a Operation Pug in with Cleveland ZOB and approach a bunch of years ago, I have always had the highest regard for all controlers.
redcataviation
check that center..."Plug In"...stupid auto correct
timofthedeep
Tim Hollars 1
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be him.
bingoair
It is obvious, he hates the FAA, with all their rules & stuff. “Says right here on screen GPS direct” way to go Captain. No need to argue with the FAA lawyer. Pledge intoxication, tell em you were smoking weed.
royhunte92
Roy Hunte 1
And get his license taken away.
LeanderWilliams
This guy must have received instruction from Harrison Ford on ATC / Pilot etiquette, even though Harrison was always apologetic.
ecfahrner
A question comes up from time to time at my place of employment, regarding if the FAA is truly on board with the "just culture" concept, or if they really just want to keep on blaming and punishing pilots.

Our local Flight Standards District Office emphasizes that punitive certificate action is reserved ONLY for those pilots who "cannot or will not" accept responsibility & remedial education, and so far they've been true to their word. The FSDO & FAA are quite proud of the WINGS program and they really are pushing for education. In fact, I frequently see pilot deviation case investigations get closed when the pilots in question interview and show that they've already taken relevant remedial classes through WINGS.

This particular one-man-clown-show, however, is the perfect example of the type of pilot who will likely face certificate action because he's not accountable and can't be taught.
30west
30west 1
This was not merely a "deviation" which is typically a screw up, but an outright refusal to comply with ATC instruction multiple times. Suspension of his pilot's certificate for at least three years, IHO, is appropriate.
tbpera
Tom Pera 1
as an old controller my experience was that FAA inspectors rarely did anything except laugh it off...
billknn
billknn 1
Interesting that his history shows departing Calif and going to Minneapolis for several days during the unrest there. Very curious..
jwadams0
JAMES ADAMS 1
No doubt he hates cops as well.
thinwing
kelly couch -5
i agree JM..he obviosly thought he had clearance based on his first callup and recieving runway conditions at Henderson.She waited until he was on top of LAS than shouted remain clear!He should have recieved a vector out of class B than sort it out.He was panicked ,not knowing what to do...thus his apparent attitude..this is a partial controller error..look to be 50 -50 to me.
tbpera
Tom Pera 4
wasn't panicked...was defiant

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Duanewill
Henderson is not listening in while he was talking to approach. Henderson tower remained professional during their contact with the entitled jerk.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

JakeSully
She might have been busy with other priorities
tbpera
Tom Pera 1
yep...can be a lot going on that isn't transmitted over the air... coordination with other controllers.. info streaming in
bcanderson
Actually, if you look at the Flightaware track, he makes a turn to the west and crosses I-11 which the controller probably would not have anticipated. It actually makes no sense for him to have done that unless he was thinking the 17s were in use at Henderson, though the controller clearly tells him the 35s are in use.

What he should have done was go to Boulder City (BLD) VOR and track outbound on the 245 radial. That keeps you clear of the Class B and sets you up just about right for a midfield pattern entry for either set of runways.

This guy has no excuse, the controller was just right as the pilot had no need to transit the Class B to get where he was going to.

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